> "Cancer is awful," Xu says. "What's making it even worse is cancer treatment."
Well said. And it's either terrible or expensive (and sometimes also terrible as well).
Proton therapy for instance is amazing at targeting hard to reach tumors like those in the eye, but costs close to fix figures as it requires a team of people to design the treatment.
The article mentions that this is a different type of ultrasound treatment than the one that has been in use for prostate cancer treatment for some time.
>But you cannot use this anywhere where the ultrasound would be blocked by other organs.
Yes you can. If you had an array of ultrasonic transducers around the body you could have each of them in phase targeting a single spot. Beamforming is a thing we've been doing for years with RF. It's even more trivial with sound.
We were privy to a lab that accidentally cooked mice with gold nanoparticles in the late 90s with multiple IR lasers. After they figured the power side, it turns out that gold nanoparticles are wildly cytotoxic on a number of axes.
> Fun fact: using this ultrasound for prostate cancer treatment reduces the risk of erectile disfunction
I’m not aware of strong evidence in this area (not saying you’re incorrect).
For the liver indications, several elite radiology departments have had very poor outcomes with their patients, despite the strong public data. I would not, with my own prostate, try a new technology until at least a decade out, at least.
Can’t the surgery be then with a small probe just to get the ultra sound tip near the cancer? I don’t know the size of the ultrasound tip but seems to me it can be smaller then a hand or tweezers.
Often constructive and destructive interference of waves can be used to focus the ultrasound through tissue without any incisions at all. Kidney stones are sometimes broken up this way.
I remember seeing a demo from people who could slap a raw steak into one of these machines, and with ultrasound, sear their logo into the meat at sub mm precision. But that was long ago & not ready for medical usage yet. Cool that it seems to be used for actually treating people now.
AFIKR two facilities do this kind of treatment. One in Canada and one in China. There already was a HN threads with some reporting to have been treated in Canada.
Apparently, only some tumors have a distinct and unique shape / size. The “trick” is to calibrate the resonance exactly to the size of the cancer cell. So that resonance would “hurt” only that kind of shape / size cell. Which was much harder to do than it sounds. Sadly not all cancer cells are unique and not that “easily” distinguishable by size
But I am not in the medical field and just repeating what I’ve read.
Watching Hank Green's YouTube video where he found out that his cloudy pee was cancer leaving his body, he was surprised that doctors don't tell you to expect it. It can be such a morale boost.
If I interpret the article correctly, the ultrasound energy does two things: it effectively destroys the cancer cells by overheating them, and it physically breaks apart the tumour. Your immune system can further break up and get rid of dead cells the way it deals with normal dead cells.
I doubt ultrasound would trigger apoptosis in cancer cells, one of the reasons they're cancerous is that they refuse to commit suicide when they should.
The only thing the article fails to mention is the use of more than one transducer used to focus multiple ultrasound beams to an intersection point in the body, increasing the heating power of all beams
Don't know about mRNA but individualized remedies based on CAR-T technology have been making significant strides in this area, with major commercialisation expected in the next 1-2 years
> "Cancer is awful," Xu says. "What's making it even worse is cancer treatment."
Well said. And it's either terrible or expensive (and sometimes also terrible as well).
Proton therapy for instance is amazing at targeting hard to reach tumors like those in the eye, but costs close to fix figures as it requires a team of people to design the treatment.
For comparison, a liver histotripsy costs $17.5k:
https://histosonics.com/news/histosonics-notches-significant...
Not a bad deal for a non-invasive life-saving surgery.
This can also be used for prostate, it's nothing new. But you cannot use this anywhere where the ultrasound would be blocked by other organs.
Fun fact: using this ultrasound for prostate cancer treatment reduces the risk of erectile disfunction
The article mentions that this is a different type of ultrasound treatment than the one that has been in use for prostate cancer treatment for some time.
>But you cannot use this anywhere where the ultrasound would be blocked by other organs.
Yes you can. If you had an array of ultrasonic transducers around the body you could have each of them in phase targeting a single spot. Beamforming is a thing we've been doing for years with RF. It's even more trivial with sound.
We were privy to a lab that accidentally cooked mice with gold nanoparticles in the late 90s with multiple IR lasers. After they figured the power side, it turns out that gold nanoparticles are wildly cytotoxic on a number of axes.
> Fun fact: using this ultrasound for prostate cancer treatment reduces the risk of erectile disfunction
I’m not aware of strong evidence in this area (not saying you’re incorrect).
For the liver indications, several elite radiology departments have had very poor outcomes with their patients, despite the strong public data. I would not, with my own prostate, try a new technology until at least a decade out, at least.
Here is a trial (2022): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35714666/
And a review: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36686753/
Can’t the surgery be then with a small probe just to get the ultra sound tip near the cancer? I don’t know the size of the ultrasound tip but seems to me it can be smaller then a hand or tweezers.
Often constructive and destructive interference of waves can be used to focus the ultrasound through tissue without any incisions at all. Kidney stones are sometimes broken up this way.
I remember seeing a demo from people who could slap a raw steak into one of these machines, and with ultrasound, sear their logo into the meat at sub mm precision. But that was long ago & not ready for medical usage yet. Cool that it seems to be used for actually treating people now.
It's a highly promising direction for many diseases, I specifically remember Alzheimer's as one
https://www.fusfoundation.org/diseases-and-conditions/
Don't they break up kidney stones using ultrasound as well? Or is that a different type of "ultrasound"?
AFIKR two facilities do this kind of treatment. One in Canada and one in China. There already was a HN threads with some reporting to have been treated in Canada.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630679
Apparently, only some tumors have a distinct and unique shape / size. The “trick” is to calibrate the resonance exactly to the size of the cancer cell. So that resonance would “hurt” only that kind of shape / size cell. Which was much harder to do than it sounds. Sadly not all cancer cells are unique and not that “easily” distinguishable by size
But I am not in the medical field and just repeating what I’ve read.
“Lithotripsy” is the name of the kidney stone treatment. My understanding is it’s based on vibration, not ultrasound
I think that's traditionally done with lasers.
I think parent is thinking of "Ultrasonic lithotripsy" which does use ultrasound.
I’ve had it, it’s ultrasound but it’s not always effective against hard stones.
It's amazing how we're turning sound waves into healing tools.
Once you've destroyed the tumor, how do you get it out of the body?
https://www.statnews.com/2024/06/22/hank-green-pissing-out-c...
Watching Hank Green's YouTube video where he found out that his cloudy pee was cancer leaving his body, he was surprised that doctors don't tell you to expect it. It can be such a morale boost.
The recycling of dead cells is a normal biological process the same thing happens when they use radiation to kill cancer cells
If I interpret the article correctly, the ultrasound energy does two things: it effectively destroys the cancer cells by overheating them, and it physically breaks apart the tumour. Your immune system can further break up and get rid of dead cells the way it deals with normal dead cells.
Usually, it suffices to initiate apoptosis, the self-destruction mechanisms of the cells.
I doubt ultrasound would trigger apoptosis in cancer cells, one of the reasons they're cancerous is that they refuse to commit suicide when they should.
It heats them until enough damage is done that they die regardless.
Or just tears them apart in the case of Histosonics.
So more like necrosis, not apoptosis. Maybe non-biologists are not aware, but apoptosis is not just cell death.
The only thing the article fails to mention is the use of more than one transducer used to focus multiple ultrasound beams to an intersection point in the body, increasing the heating power of all beams
How's progress on individualized cancer remedies based on mRNA?
Don't know about mRNA but individualized remedies based on CAR-T technology have been making significant strides in this area, with major commercialisation expected in the next 1-2 years